I'd been giving this some thought and I figured I would bring it up here in the forums to see what other people think/thought since I have already heard some opinions already of those who agree with me.

Personally, I enjoyed things more when there were clearly defined lines of good, evil and neutral when we still had ethos. The newer system is a great concept and should have introduced a lot of great roleplay into the game but there are so many people who seem to set this RP aside in order to be friends with everyone, or cyber with everyone, or hunt with everyone, etc. And not only that, no one wants to agree with each other what should be allowed and what shouldn't be. So the churches seem to be in constant conflict with themselves and no one seems to be taking religion seriously anymore.

It may just be nostalgia for the old days, but I would love to see ethoi make a come back.

Dalaena and I discuss this topic occasionally, and interestingly enough we were recently discussing affinity. It seems like affinity, while interesting, is overly complex and does not seem to accomplish much. If we are wrong about that, we'd love to hear people tell us why.

This system has been tweaked and overhauled many times over the years. It has never really accomplished its goals. The core problem is we are trying to codify behavior that should be natural through RP. Unfortunately, if we leave it totally through RP, you'll have the gear and friend "whores" who ignore it all to be buddies with everyone.

It definitely ain't easy.

While I really think there's SO MUCH potential with affinity being the way it is, there seem to be two extremes:

On one end, you have people who want to be friends with everyone and get along with everyone.

On the other end, you have people who haven't taken any risks or changed their thinking at all once ethos was removed.

I don't know how to solve the problem either, so I'm for ethos coming back.

I do feel that the majority of affinity’s shortcomings are due to the player base wanting a more social experience in the game, but I feel the whole concept of affinity has some holes in it as well.

When affinity was implemented the concept of Gods of the Day, Night, and Twilight was introduced and each deity was placed in one of the categories. While I think it was meant as a way to categorize the Gods into simple and easy groups I feel that it kept a few people, whom liked the ethos system, from ever really branching off and trying something new.

I think the best example of this is Set, who has tenants of Evil, Disease, Night, and the Moon. Obviously Set is placed in the ‘Gods of the Night’ Category. Since Set has a tenant of Night and is part of the ‘Gods of the Night’ group, anyone with an affinity towards Set would have little roleplay to deal with anyone who has affinity for any of the ‘Gods of the Day’. Although I can guarantee many with an affinity to Set still roleplay any way they’d like.

Although I don’t think the affinity system is perfect (the whole Evil vs. Good thing is a rant for another thread), it works alright and if played well could be very robust. The Ethos system had issues as well (See previous message about Good vs. Evil and toss in Neutrality), but at least it forced consistency. I lean towards forced consistency rather than the ambiguous nature of the affinity system.


-Etruscan

I think that real-time OOC feedback would be great reinforcement for people who remain IC with ethos. I know people abuse the system but there are others who follow the rules and when they do, it's good to get that positive reinforcement that others can experience as well. When others see praise with characters following rules, I think they tend to want to do the same.

IC: Foo says, "Hey, let's hang out."
IC: You snort, "Fuck you, goon"

OOC feedback: Foo LOL at You. Very nice.
OOC feedback: Some other player asks, "Hey, keep it IC okay?"
OOC feedback: Foo reminds Some other player, "This isn't citizen channel"



I'm just saying....I don't know all avenues of the game so there is probably unspoken avenues of communication that I forget to use that would probably handle this type of thing. It would replace AIM and other such tools for those players who really do not engage in that type of OOC communication outside the game.

Legitimate players who don't cheat really do like feedback of this sort. That way if Foo ever did PK You because of conflict RP, with feedback You understands that it is gameplay/roleplay and not a direct dislike of You (the player).

I think citizen channel feels more socially exclusive to new players because people have their conversations OOC that have nothing to do with the game itself. To get OOC praise for IC action (instantly) is more rewarding than feedback from Karma system which you have to remember is there and check.

I remember early on my Char killed something innocent like a brownie or a bunny and he was racked with guilt and had to pray for forgiveness I actually liked the fact that it seemed that I had done something that was out of line with what my God stood for and was in a small way punished for it.. I am still asked what to do with the little lost kid but wonder... what would really happen if I chose the opposite? other than my own IC guilt if any?
OR is this just limited to new players?? maybe if not it should be... You Know the Gods watch the new aventurers... they like to "toy" with them

The hope I would have is that the gods would be more individualistic. Even after Ethos there was Vishnu's team, Set's team, and somewhat Bilanx's team.

With that type of mindset, you rarely (if ever) get some interesting crossover rp. Like Gorians/Herastians fighting together for the rights of fire. Or even internal team conflict rp like Silvanus/Vishnu over clouds. You have your team, RP doesn't matter, scriptures don't matter, that's just the way it is period.

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Unfortunately, if we leave it totally through RP, you'll have the gear and friend "whores" who ignore it all to be buddies with everyone.

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Originally posted by Pae

As a possible solution:

Why not an alliance system? Let's say for instance the Gods and Goddesses unilaterally declare to Vishnu, Bilanx, and Set that they will no longer be pawns of assumed alliances. They will stand on their own and form alliances that are best for their church.

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Originally posted by Aristotle
Instead, games require design and rules to maintain balance.

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Originally posted by xaxer
I remember early on my Char killed something innocent like a brownie or a bunny and he was racked with guilt and had to pray for forgiveness I actually liked the fact that it seemed that I had done something that was out of line with what my God stood for and was in a small way punished for it.. I am still asked what to do with the little lost kid but wonder... what would really happen if I chose the opposite? other than my own IC guilt if any?
OR is this just limited to new players?? maybe if not it should be... You Know the Gods watch the new aventurers... they like to "toy" with them

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I always loved this, like a lot of things you did had consequences and those times when the gods were pissed off at you were great fun, I remember having to run to Kelnore and murder a few kids to make myself feel better. Senseless murder to appease those evil Gods.

There seemed to be a lot more fellowship amongst the churches that were more closely aligned too. Things maybe shouldn't be exactly like they once were but perhaps the old system with some tweaks?